What makes America so great is the fact that even illegal immigrants have the freedom to protest when they believe they are being treated unfairly.
It is that sense of "Devil may care" that built America, and that sustains it.
And while it is true that it is every citizen's right (as per the Bill of Rights, that is) to assemble and protest, the key word in that equation is CITIZEN.
If the reports are true, America is in for a heapin' spoonful of trouble when immigrants around the country march to protest proposed crackdowns on illegal immigration.
It is no secret that America was built on immigration. The beauty of America is the fact that so many colors, nationalities, languages and cultures create the fabric of our country.
What I question is whether people who are here illegally - regardless of their nationality - deserve the fundamental rights that the rest of the American population enjoy, when they are not here through legal channels. I simply don't think it is fair to the immigrants who came before them, who toiled, struggled and achieved legal citizenship.
Congressman F. James Sensenbrenner stirred the pot when he introduced legislation that would make it a felony to aid illegal aliens. According to Sensenbrenner, his goal is not to oust every illegal immigrant in the country - how could you accomplish that task in the first place, with nets and tasers?! - but to stop illegal immigration at its root, with the employers who give illegals reason to come to America in the first place.
Sensenbrenner's bill is what set off immigration watch dog groups and set the wheels for a massive immigration protest. It is presumed that these protests will have a great impact on America's economy. Is that true, or will the disruption of daily routine be felt mostly in those cities (i.e. Los Angeles, New York, Chicago, most of Texas) that have large pockets of illegal immigrants?
I'm not sure than anyone questions the impact of immigrants on our society... the question becomes whether illegal aliens are disrupting the social and economic balance by taking jobs away from legal citizens. While the government is trying to figure out the answer to that questions, millions of legal and illegal immigrants are out flooding the streets, to make the point that they belong here, too.
Of course, for every illegal immigrant out protesting, another four are waiting to replace them.
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i have huge issues with this, due, largely in part, to the fact that 40% of my clients are illegal immigrants, or families with at least one illegal in the. We call them "undocumented citizens" though, let's not call a spade a spade, it's a "pointy shovel"
ReplyDeleteBut, I absolutely do not think that they deserve the same rights. They want rights, come here legally. And learn to communicate before you do so.
We give illegal immigrants, who pay no taxes medical coverage if they are pregnant, this is presumably to aid the child, and not punish the child for something that isn't their fault. good. it's not the child's fault.
But, I would argue that the only reason that pregnant woman came over here ILLEGALLY is because that baby will be a citizen due to birth on american soil. i say that to be a citizen, your parents must have been here legally in order to make you a citizen, and we'll save hundreds of thousands of dollars in health care for people who AREN'T PAYING TAXES.
sorry, that comment got long.
ReplyDeleteGood post Lauren.
ReplyDeleteThe immigration system is broken. PEople who want to legally enter America (from docs and programmers to maids and farmworkers) find themselves tangled in mountains (and years) of bureaucracy. FIxing that to allow a lot more legal immigratin will help. A clear guestworker program (such as in Europe), where people can come in for short periods of time with some rights, but not citizenship, is another thing long overdue in America (Canada too).
The other obvious thing that's been said on this, is that these millions of peoople are doing work people want them to do (and others usually won't do). They are often underpaid and don't have benefits.
The statue of liberty hasn't really be reaching out for a while now - maybe time for renewal.
What makes America great is the ability to attract people from all continents where they can have a better life..if this belief is broken the future of America itself would be at stake..
ReplyDeleteI think that problem is universal - not only valid for America. But i believe the problem is bigger there than anywhere..
ReplyDeleteWe have stories here too - of how our government accepts and allows criminals to become citizens, but single moms with children who are all threatened with torture if they come back to their home country are expelled. Sometimes the politicians make i VERY difficult to trust them..
Dawn - Illegal immigrants are a huge drain on our social resources, and that much is a fact. They don't contribute taxes to the programs that they take advantage of, but are afforded the same benefits that legal American citizens are given. I don't think it's fair.
ReplyDeleteI do have to wonder, though, if it easier said than done to retroactively make illegals legal citizens. While reform can take place that will affect future immigrants, is is even possible to deal with the estimated 11 million illegal immigrants that currently reside in the U.S.?
Gary - The thing about Europe is that it has survived for how many thousands of years without screwing up a whole lot. European governments seem to understand that the needs of its citizens change, and that the governing body needs to change with it.
Abhay - Do you think that belief is broken, or maybe just a little fractured?
Nerdine - Thanks for the European perspective. I think that unfortunately, you hear more about what is going on in America than we hear about what is going on in Europe.
Interesting points made about illegal immigration. I don't know what the answer is. My father immigrated here legally in 1970 and worked very hard to build a successful practice. Yet, illegal immigrants get benefits that he could never get! It is unfair, but in order to make true change, we have to go back to businesses that hire these workers and punish them in order to stop this immigration and even then there is no guarantee it will end.
ReplyDeleteSumeeta - A fine point from the other side of the debate. It is very easy for us who haven't been directly involved with any form of immigration to criticize it. The more powerful voice often comes from those who have experienced it - as you did (second hand) in your example.
ReplyDeleteIt is already illegal to hire illegal immigrants. Would it be more appropriate to punish them against current standards? Or is is more effective to punish them against more strict legislation, as Sensenbrenner suggests?
I'll see if I can find the link, but in Minnesota, specifically right now, there are additional bills in progress, in addition tpo the national ones, that would turn me, and my co-workers into immigration officers. Basically, if someone comes in to apply for benefits, and they're illegal, we'd have to turn them in.
ReplyDeleteThis is not something I'm fond of, specifically becaue it puts me in danger, due to possible jail time, and conflicts in state and federal policy.
But I absolutely think that there needs to be some sort of check/balance system to fx the problem.
Funny you should mention this. I just saw this on the TV right before I skipped over here.
ReplyDeleteWhat can I say? I agree with Dawn. It's like criminals protesting police presence. It's bizarre, really.
So what are the possible solutions?
ReplyDeleteYou can not send 11 million people back to Mexico. These people are the reason why YOU can buy a head of lettuce for 76 cents. These illegal immigrants are VITAL to our economy.
So personally, I think we need a huge wall inbetween us and Mexico to seal it off, completely. It woul take less funds than 3 monthsx worjht of Iraq spending. You could even use illegal immagration as a labor force, lol.
Then give all already here amnesty as long as they pay (maybe even over time) a penalty say $5000 each or whatever and have not been in trouble with the law.
We all came here via immigration but there also weren't 300 Million people in thsi country when my parents came over.
Then as needed, add Mexico to our current Federal "lottery" system
Dawn - Immigration officials should be the only people enforcing immigration laws, outside of police and sheriff's officers. You're right, it puts you in danger and that isn't fair. The conflicting state and federal laws are also of concern - which agency becomes greater at that point?
ReplyDeleteCarly - Criminals protesting police presence, right on. Jail riots. I heard recently that there is a state prison somewhere protesting lethal injection because they say it is a painful form of death. Which opens a whole new can of worms about the death penalty, but is still ironic to the core.
Rocket - You and I have butted heads in the past, and it seems like this will be no exception:
1) I agree that illegal immigrants are an important part of our economny, but only because they've been allowed to become an important part of our economy. Had lettuce and grape and tomato farmers not turned to illegal aliens in the first place, they would never have become an important part of the economy... and by extension, probably would have been less likely to enter the U.S. in the first place because there was no promise of work.
2) Build a wall? Illegal immigrants are like water - they'll find a way through, over, around anything to get to their goal. A theoretical, legal wall might be more effective, if we made it easier to enter this country by legal means. Using illegal labor to build it? Seriously, I'm not even going to touch that one, but I'm sincerely hoping you were joking when you wrote that.
3) I agree with giving current illegal residents amnesty, though I'm not sure about the fine. I suppose that would work, although the economic depression that might create for illegals could be really detrmental. If they have to pay a huge fine, they might turn to other forms of illegal work to get the money. On the other hand, if there is no penalty then why was their immigration illegal in the first place?
It is interesting to note, however, that the terrorists responsible for the 9/11 attacks were here legally. Though they were in this country on temporary visas, I wonder if increasing the ease of immigration to this country would challenge other aspects of national security.
Furthermore, I'm interested to know: Who deserves to be punished more, the illegal residents themselves or the employers who take advantage of their illegal status?
ReplyDeleteTo me, it is the employers, because they are not really empowering illegal aliens to have a better way of life, they are treating them unfairly and they are taking advantage of their situation in life. Outside of the obvious legal aspects of employing an illegal alien, I think that is a crime against humanity. Everyone - regardless of their legal status - deserves the right to be treated like a person instead of a pack mule.
I don't know what to think on this subject. But I've read some good comments though. I know these people want to stay here in the country and have the same rights as us but they just need to cross that line from illegal to legal. I don't know the process to accomplish this but when they do they will find what they are looking for.
ReplyDeleteLauren,
ReplyDeleteCrazy post, but I wanted to point out (sorry if it was already). That money from illegals here in the US is the #1 source of income for the country of Mexico (even above OIL)! This fact shows that they are not working here for the American dream, but for money to send back to the rest of their family in Mexico. I do not believe in any sort of amnesty because those people came her illegaly already. They broke the old law, so why follow a new one.
The other problem I see is once they become citizens they will get even more health care, and worse for the employers who now have to pay them "fairly", at least minimum wage. You think that the rise in costs is not going to mean job cuts...
I think we should force people on welfare who have no jobs to do the work the imigrants claim "no American will do". If you as a welfare recipient don't want to work, or get fired from your welfare job then you are out and we take your kids (since that is why you are getting welfare in the first place)!
Sorry for the rant.
'This fact shows that they are not working here for the American dream, but for money to send back to the rest of their family in Mexico. I do not believe in any sort of amnesty because those people came her illegaly already. They broke the old law, so why follow a new one'
ReplyDeleteis that not branding [i]all[/i] Mexicans to that stereotype? i can understand what your getting at but i'm sure not all of them are doing it. its such an unbalanced situation with contradictions and flagrant abuse of laws all over the shop!
also - building a PHAT wall is hardly going to help anyone, its just going to isolate America further. whats next? put a big perspex sheet thats 1000ft high around the US/Canada border to keep them from hitting pucks in?! one only hopes and dreams
Will - But the fundamental question is: Do illegals deserve the same rights since they are breaking the law?
ReplyDeleteRyan - I'm not sure that forcing people on Welfare to do the jobs that illegal immigrants would do is really the answer, either. Think about it: if everyone on Welfare was hired by the companies that hire illegal aliens, then those companies would have to pay the higher wages, etc.
Also, if you take the children, then you have a huge strain on the foster care system, which already cannot handle the number of children it has.
At least illegal aliens work hard. I have never seen anyone work as hard as a Mexican. I'm sorry if that sounds stereotypical, but they really bust ass. Many people on the Welfare system take advantage and put as little into it as possible. An unfair abuse of a system that was designed to help them, but needs a complete overhaul to be truly effective.
Rasp - Yeah, I agree, building a wall would be ineffective.
lauren,
ReplyDeleteIt's a joy to butt heads with that cute head of yours.
1) "Had lettuce and grape and tomato farmers not turned to illegal aliens in the first place, they would never have become an important part of the economy"
------ And our cost/standard of living would have suffered as cost to produce would have gone higher. Ask shop owners around, they have a VERY hard time finding the lowest level "native" workers.
2) With the technology and man force we have, it IS possible to create an inpenetrable wall. Yes, the illegal labor building the wall was toungue in cheek, but funny hehe.
I would content we need to decrease the ease of immagration to this counrty to better more effeciently control it.
Rocket - Really, though, would it be so bad to pay more for a head of lettuce than we do currently? Costs rise, that is just part of life. Illegal immigrants perhaps are a part of what is keeping the cost of so many of our favorite good low - had those workers been legal, the price of lettuce would have risen with inflation. So I would contend that the prices are artificially low, and really should be much higher to keep pace with inflation and the rising cost of living.
ReplyDeleteAnd I'm very glad the labor comments was tongue-in-cheek. I'm sure it is possible with the technology to build a wall, but I wonder if that would go over well with the American people. Spending $300 billion on a wall to keep people out probably wouldn't go over well with many voters, who would want that money to go to more worthwhile social programs, i.e. FEMA, education, etc.
As for easing immigration - I think the answer is to ease the legal channels that one must go through to become a citizen. Right now, the process is lenghty and full of red tape. If it were simpler to apply for and gain citizenship, then illegal aliens wouldn't have to crawl under fences to come to this country.
If you make it even harder to enter this country legally, wouldn't you just increase the number of illegal citizens we have here?
"I think we should force people on welfare who have no jobs to do the work the imigrants claim "no American will do". If you as a welfare recipient don't want to work, or get fired from your welfare job then you are out and we take your kids (since that is why you are getting welfare in the first place)!"
ReplyDeleteYes, because we all know that all welfare receipients do not want to work. Every last one of them is a lazy bum, who just want to live for free instead of finding a job. because that $437 in cash they receive each month is really going to provide a lasting and bountiful life for them and their children.
fuscje - speaking without knowing what you're talking about.
Lauren, i'm sorry and you can delete this, but holy offended am i.
Dawn - I'm glad you wrote that comment and I'm going to leave it up. I was pretty offended too, but didn't want to open that can of worms!!! (Note the neutral response.)
ReplyDeleteI think it is true that there is widespread abuse of the Welfare system. Though it can't be said that EVERYONE on Welfare is taking advantage of the system, it does take place. I would hope that most people who are on Welfare want to make a better life for themselves and their families, much the way that illegals do. Unfortunately, it is easy for those of us who have more fortunate lives to criticize their work ethic because we haven't reached that level of despair ourselves.
Taking a person's child because they don't, won't or can't work is unethical, illegal and frankly, degrading. The only reason a child should be separated from its parents is because of abuse - sexual, psychological, drug-related or physical.
I just want to point out that I said 'take the people on welfare who have no jobs'. I did not make a statement like all people on welfare are lazy. But there are millions of Americans getting a 'free ride' without ever having to work for it. I was mearly pointing out a counter argument to the idea that imigrants do the jobs no one else will do. I think we have people who can and should do the jobs.
ReplyDeleteI apologize if what I said was cold or came across as a general slap at welfare recipients. I think the people who get welfare and work their way out of their situation, or at least work every day like the people who pay into the system are good people doing the best they can.
Lauren,
If the people are on welfare then the companies could pay less to "augment" the money they get up to the minimum wage. Eventualy the ones who worked hard and showed promise would at least have a new skill set and possibly get promoted (and would not need welfare anymore). At least the people on welfare already get full health care (which most illegals do not get, just in some situations).
I think that if we took the kids and beefed up the "foster" system with the money that was going to their parents on welfare it would be a better life for the ones whos parents had them only to get more welfare. I know that statement will upset some people, but there have been enough stories shoing that the sad fact exists to ignore it. Give the money to people who want to adopt them, anything but leave them in such an environment. I am a firm believer in nature & nuture working ot form a person. The nurture portion in such situations only helps to perpetuate a cycle. Again I AM NOT MAKING A GENERAL BROAD SWEEPING INCLUSIVE STATEMENT :) I know that these types of situations are not the majority, but they still need to be addressed. Throwing money at it will not make it better.
Here's the thing, taking kids away from tehir parents, and putting them and the welfare money into the foster care system is not only going to put me out of a job, thankyouverymuch, it's going to ruin any semblance of order and structure that is keeping a modicum of people off the streets. The money going to welfare receipients is not enough to fix the foster care system as it is now, much less account for the large numbers that you are talking about adding to it.
ReplyDeleteas for welfare receipients who don't have jobs, it's hard to get a job when you're uneducation, have no transportation, and daycare costs are more than you could ever hope to make in a year for one lousy month of daycare. Not to mention that working at McDonald's, which is all most of them are qualified for, is not going to give you a liveable wage, enough money to support a family, and let's not even talk about health care benefits.
lauren, there is a lot less abuse of the welfare system than you think, it's just plain too hard to do.
stech, we've bogarted Lauren's blog post, and you can feel free to email me, but I know A LOT about the welfare system, and I'd be happy to chat with you about it and clean up the misconceptions that you have about it.
Good comments and good discussion, everyone. The welfare tangent is an issue that bears further inspection. Another time!! :)
ReplyDelete